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Les 144 000 : interprétation correcte ou dogme intenable ?

memorial-jesus-cene.pngComprendre la doctrine des 144 000 élus

Pour les Témoins de Jéhovah, seuls 144 000 chrétiens peuvent être emmenés au ciel afin de codiréger avec le Christ les humains pendant le Millenium à venir. Tous les autres fidèles seront réscucités sur Terre après l'intervention de Jésus appelée La Grande Tribulation. Ce chiffre est extrait du livre de l'Apocalypse, ou livre de la Révélation, au chapitre 7 :

 

"7:1 Après cela, je vis quatre anges debout aux quatre coins de la terre ; ils retenaient les quatre vents de la terre, afin qu'il ne soufflât point de vent sur la terre, ni sur la mer, ni sur aucun arbre. 7:2 Et je vis un autre ange, qui montait du côté du soleil levant, et qui tenait le sceau du Dieu vivant ; il cria d'une voix forte aux quatre anges à qui il avait été donné de faire du mal à la terre et à la mer, et il dit : 7:3 Ne faites point de mal à la terre, ni à la mer, ni aux arbres, jusqu'à ce que nous ayons marqué du sceau le front des serviteurs de notre Dieu.  7:4 Et j'entendis le nombre de ceux qui avaient été marqués du sceau, cent quarante-quatre mille, de toutes les tribus des fils d'Israël7:5 de la tribu de Juda, douze mille marqués du sceau ; de la tribu de Ruben, douze mille ; de la tribu de Gad, douze mille ; 7:6 de la tribu d'Aser, douze mille ; de la tribu de Nephthali, douze mille ; de la tribu de Manassé, douze mille ; 7:7 de la tribu de Siméon, douze mille ; de la tribu de Lévi, douze mille ; de la tribu d'Issacar, douze mille ; 7:8 de la tribu de Zabulon, douze mille ; de la tribu de Joseph, douze mille ; de la tribu de Benjamin, douze mille marqués du sceau. 7:9 Après cela, je regardai, et voici, il y avait une grande foule, que personne ne pouvait compter, de toute nation, de toute tribu, de tout peuple, et de toute langue. Ils se tenaient devant le trône et devant l'agneau, revêtus de robes blanches, et des palmes dans leurs mains."

Cette sélection aurait commencé en 33 de notre ère et devait s'arrêter en 1935 (soit durant 19 siècles). Depuis le 1er Mai 2007 (Tour de Garde, 1er Mai 2007 p.31), la date de 1935 a été abandonné et l'appel serait toujours en cours. Les élus se reconnaissent en mangeant le pain et buvant le vin lors de la commémoration annuelle de la Cène, c'est à dire le Mémorial. En 2012, 12 604 personnes se considèrent comme étant appelées à une ressurection céleste et non terrestre pour les autres. Ce chiffre est en augmentation depuis l'an 2000.

 

Les questions à propos des 144 000 

 

  • Pourquoi en Apocalypse 7 les 144000 forment-ils un ensemble vivant au même moment, à la veille du jugement qui va fondre sur la terre, et non étalés sur 2 000 ans ?

  • Pourquoi est-il dit : « de toute tribu des fils d’Israël » (Apoc. 7.4) s’il s’agit en fait d’un ensemble de Juifs et de Gentils ? (lire attentivement Apoc.3.9 et Romains 11.1)

  • Pourquoi Dieu précise-t-il le nom de chaque tribu auxquelles appartiennent ces Israélites s’il s’agit de Juifs spirituels ? (Apocalypse 7.5-8 ) À quelle tribu appartiennent les « oints » que vous connaissez ?

  • Pourquoi la grande foule d’Apoc. 7 est-elle devant le trône de Dieu avec les anciens et les 4 êtres vivants (v.9,11,15) exactement de la même façon que les 144 000 (Apoc.14.3) si les premiers n’ont pas la même espérance que les seconds ?

  • Pourquoi est-il dit que la grande foule vient de la grande tribulation (Apoc. 7.14) puisque celle-ci précède la venue du fils de l’homme (Matthieu 24.20-27) laquelle aurait eu lieu en 1914 ?

  • Pourquoi les morts en Christ et les vivants au retour du Seigneur vont-ils ENSEMBLE à la rencontre du Seigneur en l’air (1 Thessaloniciens 4.17) et non une grande partie en 1918 et le reste petit à petit ?

  • Pourquoi y a-t-il des oints mariés et des oints femmes puisqu’il est dit explicitement que les 144000 ne se sont point souillés avec les femmes car ils sont vierges (Ap. 14.4). Pourquoi Dieu donnerait-il de telles précisions si on devait prendre ces choses au sens spirituel ?

  • Pourquoi seuls les oints participent-ils aux « emblèmes » puisque le Seigneur Jésus les a institués pour tous et que « quiconque », parmi les croyants, est invité à y participer ? (Marc 14.22-23 et 1 Corinthiens 11.27-28)

  • Si le Seigneur est « venu » en 1914, pourquoi le reste des oints participe-t-il encore aux « emblèmes » puisqu’il fallait le faire seulement jusqu’à ce que le Seigneur vienne ? (1 Corinthiens 11.23-26)

  • Comment comprendre que, lorsque Jéhovah juge les oints (depuis 1918) il en trouve certains indignes (qui libèrent alors une place) ? N’étaient-ils pas parfaits en vertu de l’œuvre du Seigneur Jésus ? (Hébreux 10.14) Le Seigneur avait-il dans son corps des membres indignes de Lui ? (1 Corinthiens 12.27) Pourquoi les avait-il oints de son Esprit ? (Romains 8.14-16)

  • Pourquoi y a-t-il de nombreux groupes qui prétendent avoir chacun les 144 000 dans leur sein ? qui a raison ? Pourquoi les 144000 seraient-ils tous dans une organisation, alors que le Seigneur a ouvert le royaume des cieux à tous les hommes, sans limitation de nombre et sans fixer d’organisation qui dise : « hors moi point de salut » ? (Matthieu 5 et 18.4)

  • N’est-il pas étonnant que tous les apôtres (sauf Jean) mais aussi tous les chrétiens du 1er siècle aient absolument ignoré ce nombre vu que l’Apocalypse date de 96 ?

  • N’est-il pas étonnant que ce nombre, qui désignerait de façon si précise l’Église, soit révélé par Jean dans un livre prophétique et non par Paul dans une de ses épîtres vu que c’est ce dernier qui avait été appelé par Dieu pour révéler le mystère de l’Église ? (Éphésiens 3.2-7)

  • Pourquoi le Seigneur Jésus a-t-il promis à ses disciples qu’il reviendrait les chercher pour les prendre auprès de Lui, donc au ciel, et pourquoi cette même promesse est-elle faite à tous ceux qui, dans le futur, allaient croire en Lui par leur moyen ? (Jean 14.3 ;17.20-24)

  • Puisque la Bible est notre seule référence, pourriez-vous indiquer les versets qui disent que, depuis le mois de Mai 1935, tous les croyants n’ont plus eu l’appel céleste mais seulement une très faible minorité ? Vu que depuis 2007 cette doctrine semble avoir été abandonnée, sur quelle base scripturale l'appel est-il toujours en cours ?

  • Si tous les Éphésiens (Ep.1.1,13), tous les Romains (Rm. 1.7 ;8.15), toutes les assemblées de la Galatie (Ga. 1.2 ; 3.2) étaient des oints, quel intérêt ont pour « la grande foule » les épîtres qui leur étaient adressées ?

  • Si tous les Corinthiens et tous les croyants de l’Achaïe (2 Co.1.1 ; 5.1), tous les Philippiens (Ph.1.1 ; 3.20-21), tous les Colossiens (Col.1.2, 5), tous les Thessaloniciens (1 Th.1.1 ; 4.15-17), tous les Juifs convertis (1 Pi. 1.1-4 et Hb. 3.1) avaient l’appel céleste, quel intérêt ont pour « la grande foule » les épîtres qui leur étaient adressées ?

  • Pourquoi Abraham désirait-il une patrie céleste alors qu’il ne fait pas partie des 144 000 ? (Hébreux 11.13-16)

  • Pourquoi le Seigneur dit-il qu’Abraham, Isaac et Jacob seront assis dans le royaume des cieux, si ceux-ci doivent rester toujours sur la terre ? (Matthieu 8. 11) , c’est très contradictoire, non ?

  • Pourquoi faut-il être né de nouveau pour entrer, et même seulement pour voir le royaume de Dieu ? (Jean 3. 3-7) Êtes-vous né de nouveau ? Êtes-vous un enfant de Dieu ? (1 Jean 3.1 ; Jean 1. 1 2)

  • En quoi consiste la conversion indispensable pour entrer dans le royaume de Dieu ? (Matthieu 18. 3) Êtes-vous converti ?

  • Pourquoi le Seigneur prononce-t-il la malédiction sur ceux qui limitent (à 144 000 ou de toute autre façon) l’entrée dans le royaume des cieux ? (Matthieu 23. 13) Et ce passage est très clair ! Pas de limitations !

  • Pourquoi le « naôs » en Révélation 7:15 où se trouve la « grande foule » désignerait-il la cour alors que la rédacteur du livre était capable de faire la distinction entre ces deux endroits, comme il le fait en Révélation 11:2, déclarant même que cette cour est à l’extérieur du temple ?

  • Comment comprendre Luc 13:28 qui évoque Abraham, Isaac et Jacob et tous les prophètes dans le Royaume des cieux si seuls les oints depuis l’époque de Jésus ont l’espérance céleste ?

  • Si l'appel des 144 000 devait se poursuivre durant 19 siècles et que cela était compris par les élus, comment expliquez-vous qu'au XIIIe siècle cet appel apparait être terminé ? 

  • "Beaucoup de paraboles sont écrites dans tous les Prophètes; pourtant tu ne dois pas les comprendre selon la lettre mais selon le sens. En effet les cent quarante quatre mille Prophètes que Dieu envoya au monde, ont parlé obscurément, mais après moi viendra la splendeur de tous les Prophètes et saints; il éclairera les ténèbres de tout ce qu'ont dit les Prophètes, car il est le Messager de Dieu »" Evangile de Barnabé, Chapitre 17 - Quand bien même cet évangile est un apocryphe, sur ce point il nous renseigne sur la théologie en cours. L'appel était il terminé ? En stand-by ? Comment savoir ?


  • Comment la Watchtower peut-elle écrire en 2009 que le nombre de membre oints a diminué depuis plusieurs decennies alors que la moyenne des participants sur 30 ans, soit entre 1977 et 2008 est restée stable ? Pourquoi tromper le lecteur quand les chiffres prouvent le contraire ? Quel est le but ? 

oints-1.png

  • Si vous comprenez l'anglais, que pensez-vous de cette vidéo (publiée en 2009) et des questions qu'elle soulève ? 

 

  • Trouvez vous normal que pour gérer l'embarras avec les chiffres trop importants (lire l'analyse faite sur Aggelia), la Watchtower n'hésite pas à traiter les martyrs chrétiens avant le 19e siècle comme n'étant pas de fidèles adorateurs de Jéhovah ? Ainsi dans un article paru en Français dans la Tour de Garde du 1er juin 1973, page 351 à la question des lecteurs : De très nombreux chrétiens sont morts, dit-on, victimes de la persécution romaine au cours des premiers siècles de notre ère. Dans ce cas, est-il possible qu'à notre époque des milliers de personnes aient été appelées à faire partie du corps du Christ, composé de 144.000 membres ?  la Watchtower répondit ceci : 
    • " Bien que certains soient portés à croire qu’un plus grand nombre de personnes ont certainement dû être touchées par l’appel céleste à cette époque reculée des premiers siècles de notre ère, en réalité aucune preuve ne vient appuyer ce point de vue. Aujourd’hui, il est même impossible de dire avec précision combien de personnes ont été mises à mort, et encore bien moins combien de chrétiens sont restés fidèles jusqu’à la mort.  Maints récits relatifs aux martyrs chrétiens ont été enjolivés par la tradition et sont par conséquent peu dignes de foi. (...) de nombreux chrétiens de ces temps-là n’étaient pas de fidèles adorateurs de Jéhovah Dieu. " 
  • Ne pensez-vous pas que cette réponse en dénigrant la mémoire de chrétiens morts pour leur foi est une astuce pour conserver un dogme et la justification de leur autorité sur le reste des membres ? Est-ce honnête ? Si l'appel est terminé depuis plus longtemps que prévu, comment les membres du Collège Central peuvent-il se déclarer comme oints et élus par Dieu pour diriger le reste des Témoins de Jéhovah ?pyramide.png

4 votes. Moyenne 4.00 sur 5.

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Angéla
  • 76. Angéla | 11/12/2019
Angéla.
Tout ce que je retiens de vos écris et les commentaires c'est que nous seront tous jugés par dieu. peu importe notre façon d'interpreter la bible. Peu importe le nombre. Seul le père sait quand et comment. Il a pris le temps de nous prévenir a nous d'agir au mieux pour nous et nos proche au quotidien et le remercier pour ses bienfaits.
hadj
  • 77. hadj | 09/04/2017
Image

VIDEOS - YouTube[i][/i]:

Qu’est-ce que le Royaume de Dieu ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1cjFB_19Bk

What Is God’s Kingdom?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Csz76J4zGU&t=2s

¿Qué es el Reino de Dios?
https://www.youtube.com/

上帝的王國是什麼?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fh88NVaaso
= = = = = = = = = =

Alors que la tempête approche, concentrez-vous sur Jésus ! Les futurs bienfaits du Royaume
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ioaM-oyeb6w

As the Storm Approaches, Maintain Your Focus on Jesus!—Future Kingdom Blessings
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n47-nAZKUAs

Al acercarse la tormenta, mantengamos la vista fija en Cristo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmzVI94M1MM

風暴將臨,更要定睛注視耶穌!——上帝王國將帶來的福分
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMVMhgdnH8Q
= = = = = = = = = =
hadj
  • 78. hadj | 09/04/2017
CE QU’EST LE ROYAUME DE DIEU

Le Royaume de Dieu est un gouvernement établi par Jéhovah Dieu et dirigé par un Roi qu’il a choisi. Qui est ce Roi ? Christ. Ce Roi est plus grand que tous les dirigeants humains ; il est appelé “ le Roi de ceux qui règnent et le Seigneur de ceux qui dominent ”. (1 Timothée 6:15.) Il a le pouvoir de faire beaucoup plus de bien que n’importe quel dirigeant humain, même le meilleur.

D’où le Royaume de Dieu dominera-t-il ? Voyons... où est ? Vous vous rappelez certainement avoir appris qu’il a été mis à mort sur un poteau de supplice et qu’il a ensuite été ressuscité. Peu après, il est monté au ciel (Actes 2:33). C’est donc là que se trouve le Royaume de Dieu : au ciel. Voilà pourquoi la le qualifie de “ royaume céleste ”. (2 Timothée 4:18.) Tout en étant au ciel, ce Royaume dirigera la terre. — Révélation 11:15.

Pourquoi est-il un Roi remarquable ? Déjà, parce qu’il ne mourra jamais. Par comparaison avec les rois humains, la l’appelle “ celui qui seul a l’immortalité, qui habite une lumière inaccessible ”. (1 Timothée 6:16.) Cela signifie que tout le bien qu’il fait sera durable. Or, il accomplira effectivement de belles et grandes choses.

Considérez cette prophétie biblique concernant : “ Sur lui se posera l’esprit de Jéhovah, l’esprit de sagesse et d’intelligence, l’esprit de conseil et de force, l’esprit de connaissance et de crainte de Jéhovah ; et son plaisir sera dans la crainte de Jéhovah. Et il ne jugera pas sur ce qui se montrera à ses yeux, et il ne reprendra pas d’après ce qu’entendront ses oreilles. Et vraiment il jugera les petits avec justice ; et il reprendra avec droiture en faveur des humbles de la terre. ” (Isaïe 11:2-4). Selon ces paroles, serait un Roi juste et compatissant pour les habitants de la terre. Aimeriez-vous avoir un tel dirigeant ?

Voici une autre vérité à propos du Royaume de Dieu : ne régnera pas seul. Il aura des adjoints. Par exemple, l’apôtre Paul a dit à Timothée : “ Si nous continuons à endurer, nous régnerons aussi avec lui. ” (2 Timothée 2:12). Paul, Timothée et d’autres fidèles qui ont été choisis par Dieu régneront avec dans le Royaume céleste. Combien auront ce privilège ?

Comme l’explique le chapitre 7 du présent livre, l’apôtre Jean a reçu une vision dans laquelle il a vu “ l’Agneau [ Christ] qui se tenait debout sur le mont Sion [sa position de Roi au ciel], et avec lui cent quarante-quatre mille ayant son nom et le nom de son Père écrits sur leurs fronts ”. Qui sont ces 144 000 ? Jean répond : “ Ce sont ceux qui continuent à suivre l’Agneau où qu’il aille. Ceux-ci ont été achetés d’entre les humains comme prémices pour Dieu et pour l’Agneau. ” (Révélation 14:1, 4). Ce sont donc des disciples fidèles de Christ spécialement choisis pour régner au ciel avec lui. Après avoir été relevés d’entre les morts pour la vie céleste, “ ils doivent régner sur la terre ” aux côtés de (Révélation 5:10). Depuis les jours des apôtres, Dieu choisit des chrétiens fidèles pour parvenir au nombre de 144 000.

Quel témoignage d’amour que d’avoir pris des dispositions pour que et les 144 000 dirigent l’humanité ! En effet, sait ce que veut dire être un humain et souffrir. Paul a déclaré que n’est “ pas quelqu’un qui ne puisse compatir à nos faiblesses, mais quelqu’un qui, à tous égards, a été mis à l’épreuve comme nous, mais sans péché ”. (Hébreux 4:15 ; 5:8.) Ses adjoints aussi ont souffert et enduré des épreuves au cours de leur vie d’humain. De plus, ils ont lutté contre l’imperfection et ont subi toutes sortes de maladies. Ils comprendront sans aucun doute les problèmes des humains.

QUE FERA LE ROYAUME DE DIEU ?...
https://www.jw.org/fr/publications/livres/qu-enseigne-/le-royaume-de-dieu/

Image
hadj
  • 79. hadj | 09/04/2017
Qu’est-ce que le Royaume de Dieu ?

Réponse de la Bible

Le Royaume de Dieu est un véritable gouvernement, établi par Jéhovah. Dans la Bible, le « royaume de Dieu » est aussi appelé « royaume des cieux », car il exerce son autorité depuis les cieux (Marc 1:14, 15 ; Matthieu 4:17). Bien qu’ayant de nombreux points communs avec les gouvernements humains, il leur est supérieur sous tous rapports. Par exemple :

Dirigeants. Dieu a désigné Jésus Christ comme Roi du Royaume, et il lui a donné plus de pouvoir qu’aucun humain n’en aura jamais (Matthieu 28:18). Jésus se sert de son pouvoir uniquement pour faire le bien. Il a d’ailleurs déjà démontré qu’il est un chef digne de confiance et plein de compassion (Matthieu 4:23 ; Marc 1:40, 41 ; 6:31-34 ; Luc 7:11-17). Sous la direction divine, Jésus choisit des hommes et des femmes de toutes nations pour être « rois sur le monde entier » à ses côtés dans les cieux (Révélation 5:9, 10, Parole de Vie).
Durée. À la différence des gouvernements humains, qui se succèdent invariablement, le Royaume de Dieu « ne sera jamais supprimé » (Daniel 2:44).
Sujets. Tous ceux qui font ce que Dieu demande peuvent devenir des sujets de son Royaume, peu importe leur origine ou leur lieu de naissance (Actes 10:34, 35).
Lois. Les lois (ou commandements) du Royaume de Dieu font plus qu’interdire les mauvais comportements. Elles élèvent la moralité de ses sujets. La Bible ordonne par exemple : « “Tu dois aimer Jéhovah ton Dieu de tout ton cœur, et de toute ton âme, et de toute ta pensée.” C’est là le plus grand et le premier commandement. Le deuxième, qui lui est semblable, est celui-ci : “Tu dois aimer ton prochain comme toi-même” » (Matthieu 22:37-39). L’amour pour Dieu et pour leur prochain incite les sujets du Royaume de Dieu à agir au mieux des intérêts de leurs semblables.
Instruction. Le Royaume de Dieu exige que ses sujets aient des valeurs élevées, mais il fournit aussi l’instruction nécessaire pour les acquérir (Isaïe 48:17, 18).
Objectif. Les dirigeants du Royaume de Dieu ne s’enrichissent pas au détriment de leurs sujets. Ce Royaume a pour objectif d’accomplir la volonté divine, notamment cette promesse : les humains qui aiment Dieu vivront pour toujours dans un paradis terrestre (Isaïe 35:1, 5, 6 ; Matthieu 6:10 ; Révélation 21:1-4).
https://www.jw.org/fr/la-bible-et-vous/questions-bibliques/royaume-de-dieu-definition/
Gérard
  • 81. Gérard | 02/02/2016
Je ne suis pas sûr de comprendre ce nombre de 144000 oints mais il me semble que ce devraient TOUS ETRE DES HOMMES.
Enfin vous n'imaginez quand meme pas des pisseuses au côté du Seigneur .
Surtout quand elles ont leur regles!!!
Le trône de Dieu ne peut tout de même pas être souillé du sang menstruel et son paradis pollué par de vains couinement de ces Jézabels
Dieu est un male et ses anges archanges et saints aussi sont des mâles.
Et que dire de ST Paul sur les femmes , ces portes du diable qui tous nous conduisent à la malédiction.
Regardez les médias
Rappellez vous de Lilith et des harpies et de dalilah
DIEU EST UN HOMME
jean-paul jullien
  • 82. jean-paul jullien | 09/04/2015
bonjour,
juste une question simple.
si j'en crois les écrits jéhovistes
les oints seraient encore à ce jour environ 12000. tous ces oints sont les élus pour le gouvernement futur celeste.
comment ce fait-il, qu'ils soient tous appelé à gouverner et que seul 9 d'entre eux dictent la façon de lire et d'interpréter la bible.
j'en déduis qu'il y a 2 types de oints, un petit groupuscule qui décide et un grand nombre 143991 qui suivent aveuglément......
je ne suis pas du tout le raisonnement des TJ. Gros problème !!!!!!
mais je leur fait confiance pour trouver une explication et convaincre les adeptes que tout va bien et ce sont eux qui ont mal interprété les écritures ""inspirées""
Jean-Hugues
  • 83. Jean-Hugues (site web) | 12/11/2013
Donc conclusion de ma réponse à Pyrrhon
Selon Romain 9 :6-8 ; Romain 2:28-29, tous les véritable chrétiens sont de la postérité d’Abraham, et de ce fait il sont
des israélites spirituels. Ce qui prouve bien que les 144 000 sont des Israélites spirituels.

Porte toi bien
pyrrhon
  • pyrrhon | 15/11/2013
Bonjour Jean-Hugues. Ta méthodologie reprend la même que celle des Témoins de Jéhovah. L'argument fonctionne en postulant à la base (sans l'avoir démontré) que les passages bibliques se parlent entre eux et se supportent mutuellement. Ce raisonnement est théologique mais il échoue quand on sait comment fut formé le canon du Nouveau Testament; Je te laisse lire cet article qui détaillera plus pleinement ma pensée : http://www.tj-revelation.org/IMG/_article_PDF/Discours-historique-sur-l.pdf Cordialement
Jean-Hugues
  • 84. Jean-Hugues (site web) | 12/11/2013
Réponse à pyrrhon
Bonjour à toi Pyrrhon,

Je te remercie de me faire part de ton point de vue et que le Seigneur Jésus le Messie et fils de Dieu puisse t'éclairer et que son Père te bénisse.

Je pense par démonstration Jéhoviste tu veux dire Démonstration de la compréhension du collège centrale des Témoins de Jéhovah. Si je dis cela c'est que ces témoins ne sont que leurs pote parole...

Tout d’abord selon leurs collège central ce chiffre est à prendre au sens littéral. Alors que je démontre que selon la bible que le chiffre 144 000 n'est pas à prendre au sens littéral.

Mais ce chiffre est symbolique, comme le confirme plusieurs passage de la bible que j'ai déjà citée. Ce chiffre désigne une multitude indénombrable.

Par ailleurs, avant de dire que se sont des Israélites dans la chair, se serait bien d'examiner les versets et les explications que je donne pour démontrer qu'il s'agit d'israélite spirituel.

Toutefois, il se peut que je n'ai pas été clair, dans ce cas je vais m'exprimer autrement.

S'il s'agit d'israélite d'origine Juifs selon la chair, pourquoi il est dit en Apoc. 7: 4 que seule 144 000 furent marqués du sceau. Comparez ce verset avec Apoc. 9:4 que toute personne n'ayant pas le sceau de Dieu subiront les fléau de Dieu (fléau qui sont décrit à partir de Apoc. 9:5...)

Ne serait-ce pas la une manière d'affirmer que seule 144 000 israélite d'origine juif sont marqués du sceau et que aucun chrétiens qui ne sont pas cette origine subiront les fléau divine.

Ne serait-ce pas une manière de dire que Dieu fait une différence entre eux. Alors que la bible affirme le contraire, voir Galates 3:28. Oui pour qu'il n'ai pas de différence, il faut que Dieu considère tous les véritables chrétiens quelque soit leurs origines comme des Juifs et que par leur foi, il sont issus de la semence ou postérité d’Abraham.

D'ailleurs, Paul lui même sous l'inspiration divine déclara que ce ne sont pas ceux qui sont d'origine Israélite qui son juifs, mais ceux qui ont foi en Jésus le messie qui sont de vrai juifs. Voir Romain 9 :6-8 ; Romain 2:28-29
Jean-Hugues
  • 85. Jean-Hugues (site web) | 12/11/2013
Réponse à Benidejah

L'épouse du Seigneur Jésus Le Messie et fils de Dieu, est composé de Juifs selon la chair et de non juifs selon la chair (des gens des autres nations).

Or selon la parole de Dieu, qu'on retrouve en Apocalypse 14 :1 ; 21 : 2, 9-17, les 144 000 représente l'épouse du Seigneur Jésus Christ. Ce qui signifie que se sont des Juifs selon l'esprit ou des juifs spirituels.

Ensuite, selon Apocalypse 7 au verset 4 seul 144 000 furent marqués du sceau. Car si ce verset était à prendre au sens littéral, cela voudrait dire que les chrétiens qui ne sont pas juifs ne seraient pas marqués du seau de Dieu.

En tenant ce raisonnement, cela voudrait dire que c'est seulement des Juifs issue du peuple d’Israël selon la chair qui auront la vie céleste et seront approuvés de Dieu
Car, selon Apocalypse 9: 4 tous ceux qui ne sont pas marqués du seaux de Dieu, subiront les fléaux Divin.

Je le répète à nouveau, seule les personnes qui sont marqués du seau, ne subiront pas le courroux de Dieu et sont approuvés de Dieu. Or, selon Apocalypse 7 au verset 4 seul 144 000 furent marqués du sceau.

Voilà qui prouve bien que le chiffre 144 000 est symbolique et que les juifs également sont symbolique. Notons au passage que les versets de l’apocalypse sont pour la plupart symbolique.
pyrrhon
  • pyrrhon | 12/11/2013
Votre démonstration jéhoviste tombe à l'eau par si c'était symbolique, l'écrivain n'aurait pas précisé le nombre par tribus : Apocalyse : 7.4 : Et j'entendis le nombre de ceux qui avaient été marqués du sceau, cent quarante-quatre mille, de toutes les tribus des fils d'Israël: 5 de la tribu de Juda, douze mille marqués du sceau; de la tribu de Ruben, douze mille; de la tribu de Gad, douze mille; 6 de la tribu d'Aser, douze mille; de la tribu de Nephthali, douze mille; de la tribu de Manassé, douze mille; 7 de la tribu de Siméon, douze mille; de la tribu de Lévi, douze mille; de la tribu d'Issacar, douze mille; 8 de la tribu de Zabulon, douze mille; de la tribu de Joseph, douze mille; de la tribu de Benjamin, douze mille marqués du sceau. OUI. Pour le rédacteur qui est Juif, seuls les chrétiens d'origine juive font partie des 144 000. Votre volonté d'en faire partie ne justifie pas de trahir ainsi la lecture du texte.
Benidejah
  • 86. Benidejah | 05/11/2013
Il est possible que les 144000 soient tous issus du peuple d'Israël et repésentent l'épouse de Jésus.
La grande foule et ceux qui viendront grossir leurs rang sont tous appelés a régner avec Jésus et son épouse en tant qu'Israël spirituel.
Nous les voyons bien en tant qu'invités lors du mariage de Jésus Rév19:1,6,9
Jean-Hugues
  • 87. Jean-Hugues (site web) | 06/10/2013
Bonjour,
Selon les écrits bibliques (Apocalypse 14 :1 ; 21 : 2, 9-17)
les 144 0000 représente l'épouse du christ.
Or, puisque les 144 000 représente symboliquement
l'épouse du christ, cela signifie également que ces
144 000 symbolisent la totalité des chrétiens qui
vivront au ciel.

De plus, toujours selon les écrits bibliques, l'épouse
du Christ est composée des gens de toutes
les nations. (2 Corinthiens 11 :2 ; Apocalypse 5: 9-10).

Enfin, puisqu'elle est composées de Juifs et des gens
d'autres nations, cela prouve que cette épouse symbolique
ou 144 000 sont des Israélites spirituels (Romains 2: 28-29 ; 9: 6-8 ; Jacques 1 :1).

Toujours selon les écrits biblique les 144 000 est un
chiffre symbolisant la totalité des chrétiens qui seront
au ciel avec le Seigneur Jésus le messie, le fils de Dieu.

A cet effet, voici une petite partie des textes bibliques
qui le prouve:
selon Apocalypse 7 au verset 4 seul 144 000 furent marqués du sceau.
or, selon Apocalypse 9: 4 tous ceux qui ne sont pas marqués du seaux de Dieu, subiront les fléaux Divin.

Cela sous entend, que les personnes qui font partie de la grande foule indénombrable (Apoc. 7:9) ont reçu sur leur front le sceau Divin.

Toutefois, bien que les membres de cette grande foule
indénombrable (Apoc. 7:9) ont reçu le sceau de Dieu afin d'être protéger des fléaux Divin. Signifiant par là qu'elle fait
partie des 144 000 symbolique.

Par contre, cette foule indénombrable (Apoc. 7:9) ne constitue qu'une petite partie des 144 000 symbolique.
En effet, voici le verset qui le prouve:

Selon le chap. 7 du verset 14, elles sont les seuls chrétiens
ayant traversé la grande tribulation.
En effet, les chrétiens du 1er siècle et les suivants sont morts avant que la grande tribulation du temps de la fin n'arrive.

Autrement dit, bien que faisant partie des 144 000,
ces chrétiens représente ceux du temps de la fin uniquement.

Tandis que les 144 000 représente la totalité des chrétiens.

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Date de dernière mise à jour : 24/05/2013